Friday, March 16, 2007

Look, You Racist, It Wasn't A White Woman.

It has come to my attention that in her post about how Ampersand is the anti-Christ incarnate, Cheryl Lindsey Seelhoff (Heart) claimed that my Special White Lady award was created with the help of WomansSpace:

"I was at first disgusted by the way Amp thought bint’s “special white lady award” was so funny, created, as it was, with the help of none other than :::the name that shall not be named::: who created the imposter blog to mine, when Amp KNOWS this person’s history and what this person is about (the imposter), but more than that, as though Amp has any standing to even offer an opinion."

For those who don't know about the controversy, Cheryl has a blog by the name of WomensSpace. She got her panties in a bunch when someone created a blog called WomansSpace and that person then proceeded to expose all of the holes in Cheryl's latest fad, radical feminism. She went on to complain that by creating this blog with the similar sounding name, the person was trying to pretend to be her even though the person stated on her blog and explained that she is NOT Cheryl every time someone got confused about it on other sites.

Personally, I thought/think the whole incident was absolutely hilarious on so many levels. Cheryl explains that she named her site "WomensSpace" because the women on her old site, The Margins, voted on names for her new blog and they were the ones who chose that name. What she failed to mention is that the person who created the WomansSpace blog ran an IRC channel using this name way back in the nineties. This means that, of the two of them, Cheryl is actually the one who has the least history with this name.

Could it be that Cheryl was just unaware of this fact? Hardly. You see, she and this person have been familiar with each other for several years, having posted on many of the same sites which is where the drama between the two of them began. Unfortunately, if someone new to the Cheryl Chronicles only got to see the waist-deep bull caca that she spewed they might actually feel like this was a case where she really was being victimized and that is exactly what happened, for a little while. It didn't take more than a few days for the rest of the story to get out and suddenly the only people who were defending her were the same sycophants that gladly gulp down the shite that Cheryl regularly shovels out to them on her blog.

But let's say that the other person hadn't been using the WomansSpace title longer than Cheryl has. Would that mean that the creation of this new blog was somehow illegal? Nope. Someone suggested that Cheryl might want to get a trademark and/or consult a lawyer about this (supposedly) imposter site. Cheryl seemed to think that since the person suggesting it was a lawyer, then it must be a good idea.

You know, if these folks weren't so ignorant, I might actually feel bad about treating them as objects of derision on my blog. The problem is, they just won't stop giving people a plethora of material to laugh at. As much as they like to pontificate about how much more enlightened and learned they believe they are compared to us women of color and people with disabilities, you'd think that they'd at least be familiar with the basic principles of democracy in this country. Between the whole lot and despite over 90 different responses to this post, not even one of them showed any awareness of the fact that satire and parody are forms of protected speech in this country where they live.

If I wanted to create a site called "The Real Margins" and call myself "Heart(less)" and I went on to state that my sole purpose in creating the site was to expose the truth about Cheryl's persecution complex, there is no law that prohibits this. In fact, there isn't even anything unethical about making such a site. Anyone who is even vaguely familiar with literature knows that without parody many of the most influential books in history could not have been produced. It is an essential means of engaging in criticism and this nation wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the fact that people have been able to use parody and satire to spread controversial ideas in a form that wouldn't get them killed on the spot. In fact, Cheryl even uses it on her site, so it is the height of hypocrisy for her to complain about being the subject of the same sort of treatment.

Nevertheless, I understand why it may come as a surprise to Cheryl and her crew that one of their own, a fellow white woman, would dare point out how their views were absolutely antithetical to feminism, especially radical feminism. Of course they'd want to have a site like that shut down. It's a matter of competition.

When it was just women of color (Me, BrownFemiPower, Aradhana, Rabfish, and many others on several different occasions) trying to reason with them, I guess it didn't much matter because we are, after all, the all-powerful oppressors of white women who were kind enough to marry into the Black race and try their very bestest to lead us into God(dess)'s Promise Land full of milk and honey political lesbians and wimmin-born-women-only spaces. However, this rival website, run by a white woman with a different interpretation of radical feminism, was obviously unfair to them because there's no way that people would be able to tell the difference between someone like the alleged imposter who said, "This is my view and these are the reasons why I think Seelhoff et al are wrong" and the good white ladies who know what's best for us and would have liberated us all by now if we'd just sit down, shut up, and stay out of their way.

Lord knows us women aren't smart enough to be able to tell when we do something because we want to and when we engage in a behavior because someone is forcing us to, right? No? Well, according to them, that's the case. Of course, they are the exception to this rule. They are quite certain that their beliefs couldn't possibly be aiding the dreaded patriarchy and how is it that they are able to be sure about this? Why, it's because they are white women, stupid! Not only that, they are white women who married Black men and if that weren't enough to prove how much street cred they have in conversations with women of color, there's the completely significant and utterly relevant fact that they also have Bi-Racial ChildrenTM.

How about that?! Black/Latino/Asian/NDN womankind, just when you thought that you were special, you find out that there are people on this planet who have actually *gasp* married outside of their species race. Oh, and did I forget to mention their Bi-Racial ChildrenTM? I didn't? Sorry about that. But hey, can you blame me? I mean, you know how much us people of color just loooooooooves us some mulatto kids. There's nothing that says "I know what's best for Black women" better than having spawned your very own troupe of mixed-race children.

In fact, given their obsession with telling people of color about their Bi-Racial Children, I just thought they might find it interesting to know that despite the fact that my award might seem far too clever to have been created by a non-white person, there was no white lady involved in the process. However, perhaps its originality is a result of the fact that the person who helped me make it is at least partially white. That's right! My very own multi-racial child is the one who actually assisted me.

VanGoghGirl is a very talented artist who is much more adept in computer graphics than I'll ever be. But there I go again, treating her like an individual and not just some objectified tool to be dragged into conversations when I want to talk to or about people of other races. Maybe some folks ought to try that sometimes. I'm willing to bet their bi-racial children would probably appreciate it.

By the way, if anyone who reads this actually talks to Cheryl, maybe they should tell her that if Ampersand has no standing to offer an opinion on what he sees, then neither does she. It seems this fact never even dawned on her but that shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, I think.


belledame222 said...

ooh. aah. ow.

to be totally fair (for whatever reason), she does i expect have other reasons to be upset about the other person besides her alternate interpretation of the One True Radfeminism. (which, the entire world is waiting with baited breath for the Definitive Version, of course. I am Catherine MacKinnon -and- Spartacus!--)

doesn't really excuse or explain the rest of it, though.

but yes, by all means, Heart, get a lawyer! no, not even about possible stalking: about COPYRIGHT. yes. (pulls up lawnchair and readies popcorn machine)

might want to sue Amp there too, while she's at it. for, um, uh...well, I'm sure there must be something. i mean, clearly he's the Devil Incarnate. next thing you know, he'll be wanting to go to the MWMF, because that's exactly what ev0l pimps and pr0nmasters do, is try to gate-crash a glorified Girl Scout Campout somewhere out in the middle of nowhere. and then, the world will end.

wv: wanbi


belledame222 said...

"bated breath," goddamit.

anyway, i like that biracial children have a trademark. stamped on the forehead at birth I assume. maybe you'd better get a lawyer before she patents that, too; after all, she probably did that first as well, you know. next thing you know, you could totally find yourself in a custody/copyright infringement battle, and wouldn't that just suck?

Anonymous said...

"You know, if these folks weren't so ignorant, I might actually feel bad about treating them as objects of derision on my blog. The problem is, they just won't stop giving people a plethora of material to laugh at."

These people aren't for real. Heart seemed ok until she enabled CM. They didn't talk about the special white woman award until Amp's post which seems sexist and racist to me like we didn't matter when it happened. CM is really racist and sexist.

Veronica said...

The name thing reminds me of those women that are afraid someone will "steal" their future baby names.

bint alshamsa said...


You know, I won't deny that there are plenty of reasons why someone might dislike the so-called imposter. Hell, we all have reasons to be upset with other people. My issue (one of them) is with Cheryl using legitimate gripe in an attempt to engage in what is nothing more than transphobia, racism, and other forms of asshat-ness.

Then about Amp: it's just another example of her hypocrisy. I mean, let's just think about what she's complaining about.

He shares space on a server with guys who make pr0n videos. Well, hello! So does she! There are wordpress blogs that are devoted to pr0n. There are some that advocate unhealthy body images. There are even some that make fun of Brittany Spears--this last one being especially egregious in Heart's eyes.

So why is it acceptable for her to do but no one else? Oh, I guess it's because her strict ethical standards weren't meant to be applied to her.

bint alshamsa said...


maybe I should just sign over custody now, especially since having any man around my daughter will inevitably result in her becoming the victim of foot-binding and FGM while being forced to practice BDSM on days when she's not wearing a burqah.

bint alshamsa said...


I think they were trying to pretend that they didn't see it. Unfortunately, my logs prove otherwise. Yeah, it is pretty racist that they didn't see any need to address what the women of color were saying. Even when one of us says something, it's the white person who agrees with us that they get pissed off at. To say that they are supposedly "race traitors", why is it they get so mad at those who really are allies to people of color?

Heart has been a racist asshole since before she even started with this kick about being a feminist. Finding CM just made her more willing to say what she thinks about people of color because she had a useful idiot who could be counted on to agree with whatever racist tripe she said.

bint alshamsa said...


That was pretty weird, hunh? What was the purpose of that? Did she think that by not saying the person's name, it would somehow excuse all of the bigotry that she did say? I haven't seen people this screwed up since the last time I hung out with my friends from the old fundamentalist church I was brought up in, which is pretty interesting since fundamentalist Christianity was the fad Heart was a part of before she became a radfem and political lesbian.

brownfemipower said...

Yeah, it is pretty racist that they didn't see any need to address what the women of color were saying.

Exactly--just like she disappeared off of my site when yolanda and I both said we had problems with her site.

And you know, in regards to the biracial children--there are a LOT of woc bloggers who are married to white men or hooked up with men/women who aren't their race and have had children. It just seems funny to me that you just don't hear about all of our families in the same context. you, me, donna, nappy--we're all hooked up with white we get a race traitor cookie? Or does it not count when woc make a deliberate choice to marry a white guy? or are we buying INTO racism, just as they are "opting out"?

They want to be race traitors, fine, whatever. But for heavens sake take the spot light off of you for a minute and think what that makes other women look like.

But I guess it's hard to do that, because all women are the same, right?

bint alshamsa said...

Mmmm...cookies! Do you think it's too early in the morning for me to get a dish full of race traitor cookies for us to eat BFP?

I just really wonder about where in the world these people live. No matter where I go in this country I see women of color in inter-racial relationships. Down here in Louisiana, just about EVERYONE is multi-racial to some extent. But that doesn't mean that we can all relate perfectly to the experiences of those around us. The German and I have lived together for years and you know he's far more conservative than I am but even he would never presume that he knows how it feels to be me nor would I do the same to him and his experiences. In fact, of all the WOC bloggers that I know who are in inter-racial relationships, I have never seen any of us attempt to use it as leverage in conversations with people of the same race as our partners. Whenever one of us talks about our kids and what makes them special, the fact that they are multi-racial never has anything to do with it.

I'm not naive about this. I have seen how some folks are enamored with brown, yellow, or red children who happen to be half-white. But ever since I became her mother, I have made it my business to fight the notion that a child is worth more or somehow a little more special than other children in our communities simply because they have a parent that was willing to reproduce with someone of another race because what does it prove?

I think that Cheryl and her ilk hate Belledame and Ampersand because they are real allies of POC and, as such, they have the sort of appeal that Heart can only be jealous of.

The one thing that never changes about Heart is her need to feel special. If people of color or people with disabilities or other aren't making her feel revered, then she does the same thing that she did when her fundamentalist co-religionists began to criticize her actions. She stops pretending to care about the group she was calling herself a member ofto be a part of and instead turns to excoriating them and claiming that they are all out to get her.

Anonymous said...

The race traitor movement is legitimate anti-racist work by whites. These women are racist, sexist asshats.

ben said...

i looove how she dogs amp in that thread for claiming queer positionality and how his experiences don't vault him out of dudely privilege.

just like *nobody* gets out of the mire of oppression just by some tourism.

Yeah, heart. Yeah. *Cough*

It's too early to drink, which is a pity. Gotta remember to save womensspace threads for later in the day.

Renegade Evolution said...


off topic, i got your mail finally, yay....

On topic...this thing with Amp... IF you are ON the net at all, chances are you are rubbing elbows with porny types. I don't get the hate on for Amp, really...I mean, not so long ago was he not the High Praised Ally of Feminism for giving feminists a space and the checklist and things of that nature?

Need I drag up the relic of porn on anti=porn blogs that was mentioned in the bruhaha over my freaking logo????

(shakes head, shrugs, wanders off)

piny said...

Don't interracial relationships also have a long history of, well, not being exempt from cultural racism? White people are perfectly capable of having sexual, romantic, and progenitive relationships with POC in a segregationist context. In fact, sex can be a fantastic way to show someone how little you respect them, or to reinforce social power differentials.

belledame222 said...

with Amp at least, I really think it's a question of "no good deed goes unpunished." I mean, as far as I'm concerned he went out of his way to court the woman; she guest posted at his place, once (she was invited to do more if she wanted, I am sure), which she used to make a pitch for "radical feminist only" threads in HIS space, for their own good of course; he STILL has her site on his long blogroll and had her there on the shortlist for quite a while even after the pr0n meltdown. Let her loopiest followers run all over his place...

I had dinner with him when he was out here in NY. Sweet guy. Genuinely wishes everyone could "just get along." He LIKED Heart. Admired her. possibly even still does. Thought she was smart and interesting. Took her seriously. Lots of people didn't and don't, you know? (I can't imagine why).

the thing about Amp is, I think, he tries to please everyone all the time, which as we know, ends up, sometimes, not pleasing anyone any of the time.

but for fuck's sake, the way they talk about him, you'd think he made the Bangbros pictures himself, with real women actually grabbed off the street by him personally; and -they'd- been unknowingly funding him all along to do his dastardly deeds...Oh, yeah, if he needed money, he should've just asked. Because, she/they TOTALLY would've given it to him.

this from a woman who took money and favors from the likes of James Dobson for lo these many years...

I dunno. If he'd never paid any attention to her, never linked her or nothing, would he even be a blip on their radar? Or maybe it's outrageous because he calls himself a -feminist-; men can't be that. Unless they're y'know Stan Goff or Robert Jensen or that Rich person; as long as you rail against pornstitution, and every other enemy of the day (transsexuals included), I guess you're alright...

belledame222 said...

Bint: oh, where Heart lives, I think, is the Pacific Northwest. which, I am sure there are other "race traitors" there. and a lot of latte-drinking liberals, depending on where you go. there are also a lot of white supremacists up there...

belledame222 said...

you, me, donna, nappy-

oh, btw, bfp, do you know what happened to nappy? why she took her site down, if she resurfaced anywhere?

belledame222 said...

oh, she doesn't hate me--she doesn't, can't hate any other woman. I'm "obsessed" with her, though. (presumably this began when I smacked her down for the LL bullshit). which, I mean, who isn't, really...

and yeah, the whole "I am fucking/having kids with this other person, which gives me special insight into hir experience and soul"--of course, not only does this not really matter for WOC with white partners, but, well, clearly every single man who's ever been married to a WOMAN cannot by dint of that alone claim any insight into sexism; because THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

belledame222 said...

Even when one of us says something, it's the white person who agrees with us that they get pissed off at. To say that they are supposedly "race traitors", why is it they get so mad at those who really are allies to people of color?

What I think, honestly? Because she doesn't dare engage you directly. We're proxies. That's part of it, anyway.

the other part is, Amp is a MAN (and now with 50% more prawn action!), and I am a dirty prawn-enabling tranny-loving patriarchy-blowing traitor (who also happens to have said some pretty harsh shit about Heart and some of her pals, granted), and why can't people SEE, DAMMIT

Veronica said...

"That was pretty weird, hunh? What was the purpose of that? Did she think that by not saying the person's name, it would somehow excuse all of the bigotry that she did say?"

I dunno. I find it really entertaining that they've been using my words as evidence that WS is out to get Heart somehow, despite the fact that I'm wrong on all matters and to be studiously disregarded as a person, being too ugly to breed and all. 'Cause no one has noticed that I said I thought she and Heart were the same person, because they write the same things--same ideas, same tone, same weirdness. They agree more often than not. But... that UNPOSSIBLE! Heh.

And, she doesn't think she's said anything bigoted, so she probably doesn't think she needs to excuse herself. Don't you know that when someone doesn't like Heart it's systematic? It's not because she's done anything, oh no. It's because the system is set up to hate on white ladies/women-centeredness/race traitors/rebellious political lesbians/whatever she's fancies herself "being" that day.

delux said...

There's nothing that says "I know what's best for Black women" better than having spawned your very own troupe of mixed-race children.


bint alshamsa said...


You know, I probably need to do some sort of position statement. Personally, I admire the REAL race traitor movement. I had my first experiences with anti-racist white people when I moved to Chicago. My opinion is that anyone who is willing to listen (i.e. take to heart what we have to say about issues) to people of color and act as our allies is cool with me.

bint alshamsa said...

Sly Civilian,

As soon as it's afternoon we should institute a drinking game. Every time Heart or CM says the word race traitor, we should take a shot. Hey, what can I say? It's a good excuse to get drunk and it will make their nonsense easier to look at.

bint alshamsa said...


You'd think that every adult on the net would realize that porn is all over the net. Just look at the gazillion porn-devoted sites that come up if you do a search for breast cancer information.

Yeah, I remember when Amp was what's hot on the streets to these folks. Then he dared to engage in un-approved (by them) behavior and suddenly, he's public enemy number one.

By the way, Ren, you and Belle are probably second and third after Amp.

Anonymous said...

you, me, donna, nappy-

(of silence of our friends not me)

Renegade Evolution said...

Oh, I think even though I am the crown princess o' porn or whatever, Belle has me beat on the public enemy far as I know, I have YET to have a heart post/thread dedicated to my eeeeeevvilll.

Anonymous said...

Oy. This saga just gets weirder and weirder. I suppose it was only a matter of time before Heart found some way to link all the enemies of her odd brand of radical feminism together in a massive conspiracy to "silence" her.

brownfemipower said...

oh lord. did you see further into the thread where she questions why trula mama isn't linked by tons of woc? it must be because she's in a biracial marriage?

I wonder why I have you, trula and donna and nappy linked? I wonder why I have myself linked?

I'm wondering if trula isn't linked by a lot of women because she doesn't comment on a lot of our blogs? That, just like all the other bloggers out there, you get "known" and then linked, when you leave comments, and if you don't do that, lots of times, you aren't going to get linked just because people DON"T KNOW YOU"RE EVEN OUT THERE????

I'm also wondering who died and made her judge over women of color blog rolls? do we now need to be accountable to heart for our blog rolls?

And I'm just wondering what it's called when a white women tries to stoke up flames of animosity between women of color when there is no animosity there to begin with. I mean--is that "morphing" into some type of oppressor?

belledame222 said...

i looove how she dogs amp in that thread for claiming queer positionality and how his experiences don't vault him out of dudely privilege.

just like *nobody* gets out of the mire of oppression just by some tourism.

Yeah, heart. Yeah. *Cough*

ahahaha. yes INdeed...

belledame222 said...

In fact, sex can be a fantastic way to show someone how little you respect them, or to reinforce social power differentials.

Well, in fact isn't that what that particular variant of radical feminism is ALL ABOUT?

and yet, and yet: apparently it only works -one- way, that power differential.

belledame222 said...

I mean, not so long ago was he not the High Praised Ally of Feminism for giving feminists a space and the checklist and things of that nature?

Kinda sorta; but there was always the backlash of, men almost never are really worthy of the name "feminist," not REALLY, he hasn't proven himself; he needs to stop calling himself "feminist," he needs to stop letting this person and that person post in his space, he needs to this, he needs to that.

shrug. i never thought he was the high priest of anything any more than I think he's the Devil now. he's just this guy, you know? He does go out of his way to link and spotlight people who aren't usually by the Big Bloggers, and, more important, to try to engage them; whatever else that makes him, I think he's a good guy, on the whole. I don't honestly understand what the damn big deal ever was in any case.

belledame222 said...

bfp: the hell?? weirder and weirder is right. i mean, i guess it WILL be if she's gonna try THAT hard to bolster her theory of "you just don't like me on account of I'm a Race Traitor, ISN'T THAT SO;"

it's just amazing how much work some people will put into anything and everything EXCEPT admitting "gee, maybe I screwed up, there."

bint alshamsa said...


You know, the silly thing about that is we all have more folks in inter-racial couples on our blog rolls than she does. And it's not as if there's some inter-racial blog directory so that you can just find folks like us at will. To be honest, who you're in a relationship with has absolutely no bearing on whether you're on my blog roll. My roll is full of people that I find interesting who tend to write about the topics that I focus on. And the fact that someone has a white partner doesn't mean that you're saying anything I'm interested in.

It's kind of funny that she had to trudge up Trula's name in this thread. I guess she didn't have many names to choose from since almost all of the other people of color who are familiar with her have demanded to be taken off of her site and delinked because they want nothing to do with her.

In all of the time that I've been blogging, I have never had even one person express criticism about the fact that I'm partnered with a white guy. The average blogger is far more savvy than Heart seems to think. In fact, I think that, due to a few factors working together on our lives, people of color on the web and especially in the blogosphere are much more likely to be in inter-racial relationships than those who are not.

Heart is attempting the classic divide-and-conquer move right now. With Divine Purpose on her blog roll, she can now add "See, I have friends who are black" to her repertoire of tired lines that are supposed to impress people of color and prove that she couldn't possibly be a racist.

bint alshamsa said...


Don't interracial relationships also have a long history of, well, not being exempt from cultural racism?

Hell yes, they do. Lord knows I've met couples like that. I've also witnessed similar dynamics where someone quite affluent gets involved with a person who is pretty economically disadvantaged. To be sure, it isn't always like this but it sure as hell ain't rare!

In some ways, being in an inter-racial relationship can increase a person's tendency to engage in racist behavior. I've seen couples where the person from the marginalized group is used as a scapegoat for why the other partner does not achieve some level of success even when the results are due to the advantaged persons actions.

I don't know if I'm the only one who feels this way but when me and my partner are just going about our day and suddenly am the target of some white person's racism, at times, it can be hard not to look at my partner and wonder whether he is REALLY as upset as I am or could there be some small part of him that might actually be tempted to act like that towards a person of color when I'm not around.

bint alshamsa said...


I forgot to mention, when that mess was going on with Dark Daughter and they were attacking Trula all across the blogosphere, where the hell was Heart? Did she stand up for Trula? Nope! It was us who did that. But yeah, folks are supposed to believe that she's so very fond of Trula who just gets ignored by women of color.


bint alshamsa said...


Alas, A Blog has introduced me to numerous incredible bloggers. He seems to go out of his way to highlight smaller blogs. You know, there are very few popular blogs that I even visit because they all seem to just link to each other and cover the same stories with the same information as the others like them.

I also remember Amp calling me on my shit when I said something that was, in retrospective, in very bad taste. I used a term that is often thrown around as a perjorative against a certain group of people. It just looked really bad even though the way I used it didn't seem all that bad to me because I knew how I meant it and why I was saying it. However, I shouldn't have said it at all. So he called me on it and he explained to me why he felt that I owed the woman an apology.

It marked a turning point for me. Prior to that time, I was a lot less careful about the words that I used in reference to other people. Even though I was a woman, Amp didn't have any problem stepping in and letting me know that I couldn't talk like that on his blog.

So as far as I'm concerned, he's a very responsible moderator of his blog. I read about the whole deal with him selling his domain name and I think that if he had it to do all over again, he would probably do a few things differently but what is it these people want? Blood? It happened and now are we supposed to hold it against him for all eternity?

When people explained to CM about how her comment about Asians really was racist, after she defended her statement and went on to be more offensive by expounding on her racist ideas about Asian, she eventually started claiming that people were being too hard on her because at least she was honest about her feelings and, you know, it's kind of the Asian people's fault because they never gave her a reason to care about their struggles. And even though she never did really take back what she said, her and Heart went on and on about how people were being mean to them even though there were people in the world who were much more racist than CM.

Well, I'm going to apply the same rationale with Amp. I don't need to agree with everything someone does in order to feel like they have something valuable to say.

belledame222 said...

oh, THAT'S who Trula is. right okay.

funny, I think DD and Heart/CM actually have more in common with each other than they do with their respective "sides," politically speaking.

belledame222 said...

In some ways, being in an inter-racial relationship can increase a person's tendency to engage in racist behavior. I've seen couples where the person from the marginalized group is used as a scapegoat for why the other partner does not achieve some level of success even when the results are due to the advantaged persons actions.

Well, and also consider: and then, sometimes, they break up.

to wit: Heart, who is no longer with her (abusive) black male husband(s), but sure does seem to generalize from them...

belledame222 said...

per Amp: we had a small fight once, offline, wrt something I said to him at his place. I apologized, he accepted it, he apologized in turn, we moved on. That is a rather nice thing, you know; it is a sign of someone who, on occasion, can act like a grown-up.

more and more these days, I base who I'm going to associate with on that and that alone. not their gonads, not their background, not their sexuality, not even their politics.

Do you have social and emotional skills? The more the better, but: Like, -at all-?

because, -that- is my main problem with the people I have problems with. I think sometimes their political positions, such as they are, are not unrelated to the personality problems, but in general, really, they could be coming from any ideological position whatsoever...or none at all. You learn to recognize the signs.

Anonymous said...

BD, DD = me?

bint alshamsa said...

Donna Darko,

Nah, it's not you. It's another DD.

DD=Dark Daughter

belledame222 said...

yep, The Needy One.

I went to look up the post you'd had in response to her or rather her pal, here

compare and contrast (her stuff about how bfp's carnival was "oppressing" her by not doing exactly as she wanted, I mean) with Heart's plumping for radfem-only threads in Amp's space, here

...if you see what I mean...

belledame222 said...

..anyway, this may answer your question about why Amp gets so up their nose. or, not:

(sez Heart):

. ...I don’t think I’m requesting anything from a man — more like making a demand. I think that everything we get, as women under male supremacy, we have to take somehow, wrest out of the control of men, including our space in the blogosphere, on the internet. As I posted, I haven’t joined in discussions here for quite some time. I also haven’t blogged here until today, although Amp invited me months and months and months ago. But in view of the creation of separate space for misogynists and anti-feminists, I am seizing the day, proposing space for radical feminist women only which we control. For better or for worth, as irritating and aggravating as it is to some of us us, it is a male run feminist blog, Alas, which gets read by a whole lot of people. And it is missing our voices, pretty much.

of course, the fact that she has HER VERY OWN SPACE (several in fact) to do all this in is beside the point: he's still taking up too much space, dammit!

belledame222 said...

and here's Amp's take on it:

Just to clarify, although for a while “Alas” was possibly the most-read feminist poliblog[*], I’m happy to say that’s not true nowadays. In particular, “Alas” is just a flyspeck compared to Pandagon. I’m pretty sure Feministe gets more readers than “Alas,” too. I suspect there are a bunch of others, by now.

Also, I want to clarify that I only invited you to be a guest poster, not a regular poster - at least, not if “regular” means “long-term.” Here’s what my email to you said:


Would you be interested in being a guest poster on “Alas” for a week or so?

I know that you have your own forums and outlets. But this would only
be for a brief period, and if you wanted you could recycle things
you’ve written for other forums. For all our disagreements, I think
you’re a wonderful and insightful writer, and I’m sure “Alas” readers
would be engaged by (and maybe learn something from) posts by you. And
perhaps you’d enjoy it, as well.

Best wishes,


Since that epic discussion thread, i think, he started the policy of feminist & sympathizers only threads, and let g-m-r back on, (she may've been re-banned at least once in the interim, don't recall).

Heart never took up the guest host offer, but did comment occasionally, I guess. maybe. -very- occasionally.

so you can totally understand why she's as irate as she is that he made the pr0n decision; i mean, she -trusted- him! and after all she did! betrayed betrayed...

belledame222 said...

oh, right, and this:

Ampersand Writes:
December 28th, 2005 at 3:58 pm

Heart, I have nothing in principle against women-only threads here (just as I was in favor of them on the Ms Boards). If you want to guest post, and make your threads women-only spaces, that’s cool with me.

However, I have a few concerns.

1) I’m not comfortable providing space for women-born-women only threads (i.e., threads that ban transsexuals from posting).

2) Someone other than me would have to moderate those threads, obviously.

3) Some of the folks you object to me banning from “Alas” have said pretty disgusting things about me (i.e., darkly muttering about pedophelia when I post photos of my honorary nieces, lying that I had gotten multiple women pregnant, etc). I don’t want to create space for “open season on Amp” threads.

4) I was beat up a lot as a kid. I’m not saying that to garner sympathy, but to try and make you understand that I can’t deal with bullies. And although you can’t see it, some of your radfem friends are bullies, imo.

I’m concerned that you may be expecting me to do the work of maintaining and paying for the blog, and to turn this blog into safe space for people who trigger me (and for it to therefore cease being safe space for me). I’m not sure that’s a fair thing for you to demand.

If we can get past these four issues, then I think we can experiment with women-only threads on “Alas.”

This is over a year before Prawngate, p.s. and people were -already- pulling the "pedophile" and other creepy rumors crap.

I'm sorry, I think he was right then, and the only critique I'd have had was even taking her as seriously as he did. Some of those people -are- bullies, and what she's doing there is demanding lebensraum in his space.

i don't have time to reread the rest of that 400+ comment thread, but if Heart responded to the "maintaining and paying for" point by offering to shell out a few quid at that juncture or any other between then and Prawngate, I'm not aware of it.

Anonymous said...

DD = Devious Diva too

Dark Daughta was crazy back then. WOC had its very first carnival which is hellishly difficult enough to do and she chastises everyone for not being sexually sensitive (or something like that). Peoples had enough on their plate already.

belledame222 said...

yeh. and when those of us who were still basically like "who wha, now?" didn't respond to her pleas for support quickly enough, she pulled a Cartmanesque denouement (forget who coined that one, i.e. "screw you guys, I'm GOING HOME"). life must be difficult when everyone's such a terrible disappointment.

Anonymous said...

Oh yeah, polyamory. The carnival was oppressive because a post was pro-monogamy and she was polyamory. Who even knew she was polyamorous or that one post was pro-monogamy? It completely went past me. Crazy people all over the web.

belledame222 said...

btw, just speaking as a potential reader/observer, of course, but i think it'd be wonderful if the RWoC were to be resurrected...seems like there are more women who could be a part of it than a year ago, too, maybe.

belledame222 said...

anyway, yeah: "Help, help, I'm being oppressed because I can't control the way you run your carnival!" 'k thanks for sharing bye.

it's too bad, because in general before that I would've agreed with her wrt a lot of stuff including the sexuality business, she was smart and had a lot to offer, you say.

crazy is as crazy does.

Blackamazon said...


You know my mommy says that people like that need to get off the cross

the rest of us need the wood

Veronica said...

I remember all of that. She was upset that she was linked to without permission.

belledame222 said...

oh right okay. i can see why she likes Trula Mama; the mom/DIY thing must resonate with her a lot.

btw, you've arrived, you know.

interesting compare & contrast between the tune she was singing then and what's going on now...

Anonymous said...

she wanted to be the fiercest, best-est rwoc ever instead of bfp.

my take was toronto and canada where she's from are more progressive and sensitive to marginalized groups there. maybe they'd be offended by a monogamy post next to a polyamorous one. but the rwoc could barely focus on gender and race in its first carnival. no one was thinking about sexuality issues never mind polyamory. her reaction was out of left field. an alternative community in a more progressive country may have been offended but most of us live in jesus-land.

Donna said...

Belle, you must have set up a great RSS reader. You always find the best posts and discussions way before I do! I just use my blogroll and I'm usually a day or two late.

Bint, did you see where Heart and her crew said that Little Light was a plagarist for writing a post on being seen as a monster? They were saying that LL copied a poem by Robin Morgan, but if you read the poem vs the post, they were completely different. In fact, they were so different there was no way that Morgan's poem even inspired the post. They really don't understand American copyright law over there.

Even when one of us says something, it's the white person who agrees with us that they get pissed off at. To say that they are supposedly "race traitors", why is it they get so mad at those who really are allies to people of color?

They want us to be the race traitors. We're supposed to revere them above all other human beings, even other POC, no matter what. This was clear to me when CM spewed her Asian racism on my blog, an anti-racism blog I might add, and I disagreed with her. Then it was, the POC are closing ranks against the special white woman! It couldn't possibly be because she is wrong, no we are discriminating against her! That's what kills me the most about some of these white people, the projection and hypocrisy. She expected the women to close ranks against Kai in feminism solidarity, not because she is right; but when we don't she accuses us of closing ranks because of POC solidarity, not because she is wrong! Right or wrong never enters the picture. It's all about sistas gotta back each other up all the time! or friends gotta back each other up all the time! or I gave up all chance for my picket fence in the 'burbs with my rich white husband and suffer so much for you POC when I instead married my black husband and had my Bi-Racial Children so you owe me all the time!

By the way, the entire blame for CM's Asian racism lies at Donna Darko's doorstep. You gotta stop calling for those MOC head on a stick popsicles, girl! *snicker* Never mind that DD never once said that, nope, it's ok for CM to twist what people say, but heaven forbid anyone ever misunderstand her or try to turn the tables on her.

brownfemipower said...

belle, you're so good at finding all the links and researching all the old fights and stuff. Thanks for all the stuff about amp specifically, I had no idea...

bint alshamsa said...

The thing with the Dark Daughta episode was that she really did have a god complex. She just couldn't deal with the fact that people wouldn't just bow to her will and do her bidding. It's a shame too because I, for one, would be interested in hearing the perspective of someone raising their children in an intentionally polyamorous home. However, no one's life is so interesting to me that I'm willing to put up with them trying to bully my friends.

belledame222 said...

Bint: word.

Donna: I think with CM it's actually even simpler than that: everyone is out to get her, personally; the rest is gravy. Heart, too, or, well--

--it is a constant source of interest to me how so many righteous, self-sacrificing people out there just happen to belong to THE most, if not only, oppressed group in the entire world...whatever it is, respectively.

belledame222 said...

and yeah, the LL business was where I lost whatever shred of respect I might have ever had for Heart. that was low. and hateful of course. and: stupid.

Anonymous said...

Yeah Donna, I wasn't really sure because sometimes I can think nothing is about me and other times I think everything is about me. It's part of being diagnosed paranoid a dozen years ago. The thing is she's taking out her frustrations on a woc because it's easy to be racist-sexist against woc. She's very racist against me not Kai because it's easier to be racist against woc than moc. moc can fight back and win. Notice when men bring up the subject no one has a problem and even takes it seriously. She's projecting her racism on Asian women because of a lady at the cleaner's. Eye roll. Because I'm exactly like that lady at the cleaners.

Anonymous said...

It's all about her need for attention. She's the new TheNeedyOne after Dark Daughta and Heart. Dark Daughta went ballistic and was scary for a while. TheNeedyOne has done crazy things on the internet for a while considering BD's links to sonia belle, etc. A scary, scary lady. My issue has been discussed for decades and she's the only one who went ballistic. It's always the white wives or serious s.o.'s that come out of the woodwork on this one.

Donna said...

I know, because while I disagreed with you, I also thought it was worthy of discussion. To be honest, I think she freaked out on you because you excluded her, not because of the questions you raised.

In case anyone isn't aware of what we are talking about, over at B|L's, DD said that she thought that maybe some of the white feminists and their organizations didn't feel the need to be inclusive of WOC because we avoid discussing domestic and sexual violence in our communities. So everyone was discussing what they thought about it, and DD made it clear that she would prefer to hear from WOC. That's when CM went over the top with the DD is asking for MOC head on a stick! She posted it over and over and over ad nauseum without any regard to DD's actual words.

DD, I think CM has switched her guns over to Kai since then. They have had a few words since that incident including at my place. And you're right, he's not backing down, but neither are any of us!

Anonymous said...

To be clear, I don't care about it's effect on white feminists and only care about the issue for myself and other woc. It came out because I saw it as a segue to a discussion no one wants to have. I'm glad people want to have the discussion. Maybe someone else should start the discussion. I care about both issues and they're not really related. Discussions of racism in feminism and feminism in poc movements is really for me and other woc.

Oh is she onto Kai now? I will check that out. I'm sure he will hold his own over that lightweight.

bint alshamsa said...

Geez, I had no idea about that episode between Heart and Amp. I just feel bad that I didn't know what kind of person she was before this bigotry against transpeople became a fad that I'd heard of.

It sounds to me like she wanted to write whatever hateful things that shriveled brain of hers could come up with while making Amp ultimately responsible for it because it's his blog.

That pedophile crap represents a new low even for the realm of faux-feminists like them.

bint alshamsa said...


I'd love to see the RWoC revived too.

bint alshamsa said...


Yeah, I saw that miserable piece by Heart claiming that Little Light had plagiarized a poem by someone else. These idiots just don't have critical thinking capabilities, I think. What about when people write sonnets about love? Are they plagiarizing the first guy who ever wrote a sonnet on that subject just because they also use the word love in their work?

belledame222 said...

oh, well, you know what was -really- meant by "plagiarism" there was actually even more offensive and ridiculous: she knew perfectly well LL wasn't actually ripping off Morgan in any literary sense, even acknowledged that she might indeed not have actually read the woman. It didn't matter; her point was that LL was "plagiarizing" by attempting to claim feminism, much less the experience of being a -woman,- much less the experience of -being oppressed.- And there was more than that; but i said enough about that elsewhere. basically it pushed Heart's buttons for a whole bunch of reasons, none of them good, but all of them..illuminating.

oh yeah, and the goddesses thing, which LL particularly loved since there were a bunch of white women telling her she couldn't lay claim to the goddesses of her own heritage, merely because y'know they're -goddesses.- whom Radical Feminism copyrighted back in 1972, you know.

belledame222 said...

and oh yeah, the Kai/CM thing was especially ludicrous. "I am SO INSULTED that you are calling me racist! just because I said something offensive about Asian people doesn't mean I meant -you-! and it wasn't offensive anyway! anyway I'm TRYING, god, everyone hates me, guess I'll go eat worms and then vomit all over the place again"

belledame222 said...

okay, i have now finally seen the Amp post that apparently pushed her over the edge, the "Nice White Lady", wow. like, it had nothing whatsoever to do with her? and, it's a Youtube of a Mad TV parody which he picked up (and linked to, like people with good manners do) from another site, The Assault on Black Folk's Sanity?" and uh the video is actually really funny, because those movies really are obnoxious, and wtf was her point with all that anyway? oh, right, never mind.

Anonymous said...

I'm a conservative Republican (former lefty) who LOVES your slam at the fake c*unt, Cheryl Lindsay Seelhoff.

Funnily, her Michigan thing was linked on a gay gossip blog (datalounge), and everyone was lol'ng AT her (the link was to make fun of her). I was curious about her, and went searching for information on this b*tch, and why did she have all these black kids...then the younger ones were white. I thought THAT was odd. KWIM? (know what I mean).

And it turns out this Cheryl slag was cheating on her black husband with a white computer programmer (Rick Seelhoff), and dumped the black guy, whom she CLAIMED was violent (nothing substantiated), but I do find that rather racist of her. Don't you? If he was actually violent, would this yammering hen have stayed with him for 20 plus years and had 9 kids with him?

Lately, she's all into her hairy armpits, and man hating. I haven't found out if she dumped Rick yet.

She really reminds me of a much uglier, less plastic surgeried Angelina Jolie. Without the money. Oh and I did find out that some of Cheryl's own sons married (?) and have kids with their sisters. Sister wives.

Here's the link and the quote:

"I am the natural mother of eleven children, ages 14 months to 27 years, six girls and five boys. Rick and I are the natural parents of Magdalene, 14 months, and Solomon, 4. I brought to our marriage Naomi, 8; Emily, 10; Hosanna, 12; Tiffany, 14; Jesse, 16; Claude, 21; Jenni, 23; John, 25; and Roland, 27. [b]John and Roland are married to two sisters, Ami, 23, and Jocelyn, 26, respectively, and they each have two children. Roland and Jocelyn are the parents of Betsy, 5, and Victoria, 3. John and Ami are the parents of Meadow, 4, and Judah, 2."

Remember, she's got 11 kids. The kids are: Naomi, Emily, Hosanna, Tiffany, Jesse, Claude, Jenni, John, Roland, and I assume Ami and Jocelyn (?) are also hers, as that DOES = 11.

Sister wives.

bint alshamsa said...


I really debated whether or not I wanted to post this comment. Ultimately, I decided to do it because I think that it's worth it in order to set a few things straight. I'm not going to argue with you about her being married to Rick Seelhoff (hence, her new last name) but I am going to point out that none of her kids are married to their siblings. When you did your count, you failed to include her children with Rick. These are the two that bring the number up to eleven, not Jocelyn and Ami.

As much as I despise Cheryl's duplicitous behavior, I am not going to resort to going along with untruths.

Oh yeah, your language in that comment? It's seriously effed up. You really might want to examine why you'd think it's appropriate to refer to any woman as a cunt or a slag.